backyards, that their jobs are to watch television and go out andrnbuy stuff. That destroys America. That destroys community.rnThat destroys the human mind. Also, sovereignty is a very importantrnidea. Ironically, Buchanan is afraid of the Worid TradernOrganization because the environmentalists might get controlrnover it. Ralph Nader and the Sierra Club and myself arernworried that the World Trade Organization will allow thernmultinationals to dictate local environmental laws. But both ofrnus turn on the central point: Where should decisions bernmade? I say decisions should be made in America.rnQ. And on the local level, too, right?rnA. Even the expansion Commerce Clause should bernrethought, because if we’re going to give people power, theyrnmay want to say that if you want to sell beer in Oakland, you’rerngoing to have to recycle the bottles, or that you’re going to havernto refill the bottles. As a matter a fact, if vou go a few blocksrnfrom where we’re sitting, there’s a business that has bottlernrefilling. Now, that will burden Anheuser-Busch and Coca-rnCola, but I think that localism, if you really take it seriously, isrngoing to interrupt certain patterns of modern growth and globalism.rnBut I think that’s where the battle is, and I think it’s arngood interruption if we’re going to maintain our sanity.rnQ. One of the more pressing issues here in California politicsrnis illegal immigration. What’s your perspective?rnA. We have to look at things we can do something about andrnthings we can’t. You cannot have NAFTA and say we wantrnMexican trucks, Mexican tomatoes, Mexican cars, Mexican T^rnsets, and Mexican everything else, except Mexicans. That’srnan absurd notion. As a matter of fact, the governor’s officernpromotes blocking Mexican immigration, while promotingrnNAPTA. The more trucks you get crossing the border, thernmore stuff, whether it’s drugs or people, that is going to comernacross. We have this long border with Mexico, so we have tornlearn to work with Mexicans. But instead of displacing Mexico’srncorn farmers as NAFTA does, and pushing those peoplernnorthward, we have to work with a traditionalist Mexico to enablernMexico to be a better place in accordance with its likes, tornenhance rural life, to enhance the ability of its people to stay inrnMexico, as opposed to joining the global marketplace, whichrnuses them as cheap labor for multinational American companies.rnQ. But isn’t it true that illegal immigrants are coming here tornwork?rnA. To the extent that Mexico can be incorporated into thernNorth American marketplace, for the next couple of decadesrnthat incorporation will just be an incentive for many to join thernimmigration stream, because it’s still better here in termsrnof money. And what’s happening now to Americans is that werndon’t pick food, don’t work on furniture, don’t clean dishes,rndon’t do the gardening, don’t build housing. The market saysrnfind cheaper labor. The cheaper labor is in Mexico, so no matterrnhow many nativists say “Stop the immigrants,” as long as thernmarket pressure is attracting immigration, you’re not going tornstop it. So it’s conceptually dishonest to bash immigrants andrnpush market pressure to find the lowest wages. I assure you, ifrnthe jobs weren’t here, these people wouldn’t be coming, andrnthat’s the essence of the problem.rnQ. How did being raised Catholic and being educated as a Jesuitrnshape your political philosophy?rnA. It shaped it in a way that would allow me to critique thernmarket and not see it as the god Congress believes it to be. Itrnallowed me to see with some detachment what the latest fashionrnoffers up as truth, to see a long view of Christian history, ofrnseeing secular governments come and go. Having the opportunityrnof being isolated in a seminary for four years not readingrnnewspapers, not listening to radio or other popular media, andrnimmersing myself in tradition allowed me to look skeptically atrnwhat is presented as contemporary reality, which can be filledrnwith illusions, deceptions, and greed.rnQ. Where do you think Catholic social thought is headed inrnthis country?rnA. I don’t know where Catholic social thought is. There’s certainlyrnthe tradition of the common good, the nonmarket principlesrnof virtue that are totally being demolished by economicrnanalysis, which only looks at marginal utility, input-output.rnGross National Product, productivity. All those terms never includernjustice, virtue, goodness, right and wrong. You either acceptrna qualitative worldview, or you buy into a quantitativernworldview. Catholic social thought has always kept alive thernnotion of the family wage, the common good, which stand inrntotal opposition to market rationality.rnQ. But yet we see the power of the bottom-line in San Francisco,rnwith the closing of churches.rnA. I can only explain the closing of churches by the corruptionrnof the Church. A church is a repository of shared experience,rnof suffering, of initiation—from baptism to marriage torndeath—and all those memories consecrate a building andrnmake it a shrine that cannot summarily be traded for money.rnThe fact that the Church can’t see this or that the bishop can’trnsee it just says to me they’ve lost their faith and they’re notrnreally, authentically a member of this organic body called thernCatholic Church. How are they going to replace the closedrnchurches? The idea of merging parish is an abomination.rnWhat does that mean, merge churches? Their separate identitiesrnhave been won out of 150 years of experience. You justrnkill it, that’s all.rnQ. What political issues will you be pressing in the near future,rnand what plans do you have politically?rnA. I’m looking for a more local form of action: enrichment ofrnthe community and real deconstruction of the workings of thernglobal economy, global institutions—the central banks, thernGeneral Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, the World Bank, thernmultinational companies—and of the way in which our lives arernbeing embedded in a runaway, large-scale, corporate, globalrnculture that is undemocratic, inhuman, and destructive of thernenvironment. That’s what I’m focusing on. I want to workrnwhere I can to restore vitality to where I am, and through my radiornprogram, to provide a forum for the ideas that really challengernthe totally corrupt and bankrupt leadership I perceive tornbe in Washington.rn20/CHRONICLESrnrnrn