WORDS IN COLLISIONnThe Puritan andnthe ProfligatenJohn Lofton InterviewsnAllen GinsbergnLofton: In the first section of yournpoem “Howl” you wrote: “I sawnthe best young minds of my generationndestroyed by madness.” Did this alsonapply to you?i ‘nGinsberg: That’s not an accurate quotation.nI said the “best minds,” notn”the best young iriinds.” This is what isncalled hyperbole, an exaggerated statement,nsort of a romantic statement.nAnd I suppose it could apply to me,ntoo, or anybody. It cuts both ways.nPeople who survived and became prosperousnin a Ijksically aggressive, warlikensociety arein, a sense, destroyed bynmadness. Thbse who freaked out andncouldn’t make it, or were traumatized,nor artists who starved, or what not, theyncouldn’t make it, either. It kinda cutsnboth ways. There’s an element of humornthere.nLofton: When you say you supposenthis could have applied to you, doesnthis mean you don’t know if you arenmad?n44/CHRONICLESnVITAL SIGNSnGinsberg: Well, who does? I meanneverybody is a little mad.nLofton: But I’m asking you.nGinsberg: Everybody is a little bitnmad. You are perhaps taking this a littlentoo literally. There are several kinds ofnmadness; divine madness. And in thenWestern tradition there is what Platoncalled —nLofton: But I’m talking about this innthe sense you spoke of in your 1949npoem “Bop Lyrics,” when you wrote:n”I’m so lucky to be nutty.”nGinsberg: You’re misinterpeting thenway I’m using the words.nLofton: No, I’m asking you a question.nI’m not interpreting anything.nGinsberg: I’m afraid that your linguisticnpresupposition is, as you define it,nthat “nutty” means insanity rathernthan inspiration. You are interpreting,nthough you say you aren’t, by choosingnone or another definition and excludingnanother. So I think you’ll have tonadmit you are interpreting.nLofton: Actually, I don’t admit that.nGinsberg: You don’t want to admitnnuttin’ But you want me to admitnsomething. Come on. Come off it.nDon’t be a prig.nLofton: No, I just want to ask you anquestion.nGinsberg: No, you’re not just askingnme a question. You’re first interpretingnthe language and wanting me to usenthe idea the way you use it. [But] it’snmy words. And I’m trying to explain tonyou what it meant.nLofton: On the contrary, I was askingnyou what you meant by what younwrote.nGinsberg: Oh, I see. It’s a double usenof the word “madness” or “crazy” orn”nutty.” But if you’ll listen to this tapenyou’ll find you asked to exclude onenaspect and wanted “nutty” to meann”crazy” or “insane.” And that’s why Insay you are interpreting and not wishingnto use the language as I hadnoriginally set it out. And you weren’tninterested in my explanation. Are wencommunicating or just sparring?nLofton: I think you can do both. It’snnnnot either/or.nGinsberg: All right. All right. But younhave to remember what we’re saying.nYou can’t amnesize what we werensaying. I feel you’re trying to avoidnrecognition of the fact that you werentrying to exclude both meanings of thenword “crazy.”nLofton: No, I’m just trying to understandnwhat you meant by what younwrote. But this question of madness —nGinsberg: There’s also another background.nIn Zen Buddhism there is wildnwisdom, or crazy wisdom, crazy in thensense of wild, unlimited, unbounded.nOr as in jazz, when someone plays anbeautiful riff or extemporizes, they sayncrazy man.nLofton: But I am interested in thisnquestion of your possible madness. It’snnot a gratuitous question. There is anhistory of “madness in your family.nGinsberg: Very much so. “nLofton: Your mom died in 1956 in-anmental institution. So my question isnnot cute or facetious. And the CurrentnBiography Yearbook for 1987 says thatnwhen a roommate of yours, in 1949,nstole to support his drug habit, and wasnarrested, you were implicated circumstantiallynand pleaded a psychologicalndisability and spent eight months in thenColumbia Psychiatric Institute. Whatnwas this psychiatric disability and whyndid you spend just eight months in thisninstitute?nGinsberg: Well, I had sort of a visionarynexperience in which I heard WilliamnBlake’s voice. It was probably annauditory hallucination but was a verynrich experience.nLofton: This happened while younwere masturbating, right?nGinsberg: Yes, but after.nLofton: Not during, but after?’nGinsberg: After. Did you read this innthe Paris Review?nLofton: No, in the Current BiographynYearbook for 1987. But I want to asknyou about your roommate, this drugnarrest and this psychiatric disability younpleaded.nGinsberg: No, no, no, no, no, no, non