experience, religious experience, thatnyou might find within James’s booknThe Varieties of Religious Experiencenwhere there is a sudden sense of vastnessnand ancientness and respect andndevotional awareness or sacredness tonthe whole universe. Or whether thisnwas a by-product of some lack-lovenlonging and projection of the worldnwith my own feelings, or some nuttynbreakthrough.nLofton: What made you think anyonenat the Columbia Psychiatric Institutenwould have any light to shed on whatnyou thought your problem was?nGinsberg: Well, I was very youngn[about 22].nLofton: Did they help you find reality?nGinsberg: I don’t think there’s anynsingle reality. They helped me relate tonmy own desires.nLofton: You think you were betternwhen you got out of there?nGinsberg: I think they said I wasn’tnever really psychotic or crazy, just annaverage neurotic.nLofton: Did they think it was normalnto have the experience you had afternmasturbating?nGinsberg: No, but you could say perhapsnnormal or average, yes. Peoplenhave very many extraordinary experiencesnin their lives, whether or notn46/CHRONICLESnLIBERAL ARTSnTHE POET AS BARBARIANnconnected with having masturbated,nalthough most people do masturbate.nLofton: But, clearly, you thoughtnsomething was wrong with you or younwouldn’t have gone to this institute,nright?nGinsberg: Well, I wasn’t thinking itnwas exactly wrong —nLofton: But something was out ofnwhack. You went there for some reason.nGinsberg: You’re putting words in mynmouth.nLofton: No, I’m asking you a question.nGinsberg: No, you’re assertingnsomething—that I thought somethingnwas wrong.nLofton: But someone doesn’t go to anpsychiatric institute because he thinksneverything is OK, does he?nGinsberg: You might very well donthat, depending on what you mean byn”out of whack” or “OK.” Actually, Inwas more inquisitive as to what thennature of my experience was, and Inthought I would be able to find out thatnway.nLofton: Did you go to anywhere elsenbesides this institute?nGinsberg: Oh, later—I’m going to anpsychiatrist now.nLofton: How long have you been inntherapy?nA poet in our times is a semi-barbarian in a civilizedncommunity. He lives in the days that are past. His ideas,nthoughts, feelings, associations, are all with barbarous manners,nobsolete customs, and exploded superstitions. Thenmarch of his intellect is like that of a crab, backward. Thenbrighter the light diffused around him by the progress ofnreason, the thicker is the darkness of antiquated barbarism, innwhich he buries himself like a mole, to throw up the barrennhillocks of his Cimmerian labours . . . The highest inspirationsnof poetry are resolvable into three ingredients: the rantnof unregulated passion, the whine of exaggerated feeling, andnthe cant of factitious sentiment: and can therefore serve onlynto ripen a splendid lunatic like Alexander, a puling drivellornlike Werter, or a morbid dreamer like Wordsworth.n— T.L. Peacock, Four Ages of PoetrynnnGinsberg: About three years. I wentnthrough about five years when I was innmy 20’s, and about three years now.nLofton: Why are you in therapy?nGinsberg: To see what the structure ofnmy uh, uh — to sort of like get down tonthe bed-rock root and see what hasnconditioned me to be the way I am. Tonexamine the texture of my feelings,nwhether my experience with my familynhas at all been sort of like digested andnabsorbed and whether I’m handling itnproperly and whether I know my ownnemotions, and sort of exploring thendepths of my own feelings.nLofton: What makes you think thenpeople you are going to now knownanything about this?nGinsberg: It’s not that they know. It’snwhether they’re — it’s not like — it dependsnon what you mean by “know.”nWhat do you mean by “know”?nLofton: Well, I could ask that thisndepends on what you mean by what Inmean by “know,” but this wouldn’tngive us much of an interview if we do anwhole lot of this.nGinsberg: Some sense of warmth,ntrust, and intelligence that goes backnand forth between myself and mynpsychiatrist. It’s an experiential matternthat gives me confidence to have antrusting relation and to discuss mynproblems with another person.nLofton: But you could have a trustingnrelationship with your barber.nGinsberg: I have trusting relationshipsnwith people who are not psychiatristsnand I talk to them, too. But a psychiatristnis trained, generally, to checknthrough habit patterns. It’s a very specializednthing. It may not be very muchnsuperior to just an ordinary wise personnthat you might talk to or someone whonhas more handy experience. . . .nLofton: I assume you’re going to ansecular humanist-type psychiatrist.nGinsberg: I never inquired about hernreligious beliefs.nLofton: Really? So you’re going tonsomeone whose religious beliefs,nwhose presuppositions, you knownnothing about?nGinsberg: Not all their presuppositions.nLofton: Do you know any of them?nGinsberg: Some, by body languagenand the response to the immediatensituation in front of me, which is what Inam really interested in rather than, say,nin this conversation. I’m dealing withn