perhaps an extension of egotism, annattempt to preserve one’s ego forevernby putting it in heaven.nLofton: But if ever there was a placenwhere man created gods in his ownnimage, it is in India. And also in thenancient world, Greece and Rome.nWhereas the God of the Old Testamentnis a God no human being couldnmake up. He is beyond the mind ofnman to invent. In other words, the Godnof the Old Testament, the God of thenHebrews, is the opposite of a god madenin man’s image.nGinsberg: The Buddhist approach isninteresting because it attempts to cultivatenawareness by examining all yournthoughts, and your mind — to practicenlong periods of sitting, meditation, observingnyour thoughts and feelings, andntheir texture, and actually observingnthe stuff of the mind. It’s really interestingnif you do it in a prolonged way.nLofton: But this is bad because it is annegocentric religion. Whereas thenGhristian religion says (in Luke 14:11)nthat whoever exalts himself shall benabased, but whoever humbleth himselfnshall be exalted. The Christian religionnis the opposite of self-exaltation. Thenidea there is to bring every thoughtncaptive to the mind of Ghrist. The ideanis to empty self of self and put onnChrist, the full armor of God. Selfcenterednessnis death. It is carnal.nGinsberg: But when you examine thentexture of your mind, you find after anwhile that the notion of self dissolves.nThat there never was a self there.nLofton: Absolutely. Because Godnmade you that way. St. Augustine saidnthat God made us for himself and ournhearts do not rest until they rest innHim. You don’t know anything aboutnyour mind until you first knownGod. . . .nGinsberg: But I’m suggesting that ifnyou sat and examined your conceptions,nand their texture, you’d find thatnnotions, conceptions of God also dissolvenwith the dissolution of the notionnof a permanent identity of the self. It’snmore like in Heraclitus where everythingnis flux. Or more like in Heisenbergnwhere when you look at a wave, itnfinally dissolves.nLofton: And this is precisely the waynthe Bible says it will be for people likenyou who have no faith. St. Paul says innthe book of Romans that all men knownGod, his eternal power and Godhead.n52/CHRONICLESnBut the problem of the unbeliever isnthat he knows God but suppresses thisnknowledge, the truth of God. Thenunbeliever holds down this truth innunrighteousness. And instead of wor-n, shiping the Creator, he worships thencreature.nGinsberg: But I’m not recommendingnworshiping anything.nLofton: But what you believe ends upnas self-worship.nGinsberg: You just examine the selfnand you find that the self disappears. Itnisn’t there.nLofton: But the self makes sense onlynin terms of God Almighty. You startnwith God. Because if the starting pointnis you, you are dead in the water.nGinsberg: It sounds like you are tryingnto preserve the self here.nLofton: No. I’m saying the true roadnto inner peace and happiness lies inndivesting the self of selfnGinsberg: That could be. But I don’tnthink you divest self of self by beatingnup on the self That’s more self Younjust have to sit there and observe thenself dissolve.nLofton: But Christianity isn’t a worksnreligion. It isn’t anything you do. It’snthe Holy Spirit of God!nGinsberg: If you sit there and don’t donanything you’ll notice your selfndissolving. . . .nLofton: But when you study the religionsnof ancient Greece and Rome,nand contrast them with Christianity,nyou realize that the modern idea of thenself, the person, originated in the Oldnand New Testaments. The idea thatnthere is such a thing as the individual,nwith inalienable rights that the statencannot deny, that there is intrinsicnworth and value in persons, is a Christiannidea. You don’t see this idea innIndia where some poor sap who’snnnrotting away is assumed to have hisnproblems because he deserved them,nbecause he has bad karma. This is anterrible religious belief The ancientnHebrews and Christians (by God’sngrace) invented this idea of the personnyou are so attracted to. You seem tonwant to believe that humans are madenin God’s image. But this is irrational fornyou since you reject this faith.nGinsberg: All this makes it sound likenyou’re still trying to defend the notionnof a permanent self.nLofton: I believe the Bible, that we’renall created in the image of God.nGinsberg: Well, you’re going to benstuck with yourself for a long time, ifnyou want to be [laughing]. . . . It’snmuch simpler than you’re making it.nYou’re having to drag in a supreme selfnto do the job for you.nLofton: But God isn’t like us. He isn’tnjust a big one of us.nGinsberg: How do you see God?nLofton: I believe in the God of thenBible.nGinsberg: And what is your notion ofnthat?nLofton: My notions come from Scripture.nSee?nGinsberg: Everybody does who believesnin the Christian God. . . . Donyou believe in a permanent Hell?nLofton: Absolutely. And I’ll tell you,nfriend, you don’t have to believe innHell to go there. This is not a conditionnof entry.nGinsberg: Well, you know there’s annold saying that all the conditions ofnbeing are transitory. A wise old Buddhistnonce told me that if you seensomething horrible, don’t cling to it.nAnd if you see something beautiful,ndon’t cling to it. I think your problem isnclinging and attachment, grasping, ankind of greed for Heaven, an elementnof greed for selfhood in Heaven.nLofton: Oh, yes. Christians throughoutnthe centuries have loved Heaven sonmuch that they have done a lot to trynand get other people there.nGinsberg: They’ve had inquisitions.nLofton: That was the state, Mr. Ginsberg.nBesides, I’m a Reformed Protestantnand I don’t have to defend thenInquisition.nGinsberg: Ah.nLofton: The difference between us isnthat you don’t want to proselytize,nreally, for anything you believe in. Innfact, if you were totally honest with me,n