you in terms of how you display yourselfnhere, not the history of yournthoughts. I’m trying to deal with thenevidence or manifestation of how younpresent yourself here — your harshness,naggression, and insistency and —nLofton: Why not call it my perseverance?nIsn’t that a nicer word? Or guts?nOr tenacity?nGinsberg: I would say there is a littlenelement of S&M in your approach.nPower.nLofton: No, I would say this is morenlike the kind of sex you like. ,nGinsberg: And I would say this is thenkind of power relationship you like,njudging from your behavior.nLofton: Well, that’s certainly whatnS&M is all about, power.nGinsberg: And you seem to like that,ndon’t you? Have your sexual fantasiesnever involved that kind of power relationship?nLofton: No, not to my knowledge. I’mna Christian. So I don’t fantasize.nGinsberg: I know. But so is JimmynSwaggart.nLofton: No, I think that we’re findingnout that Jimmy Swaggart wasn’t anChristian and that was his problem.nGinsberg: Do you ever have any sexualnfantasies?nLofton: No.nGinsberg: None at all?nLofton: No. I said I am a Christian.nGinsberg: You’ve never had any sexualnfantasies?nLofton: Before I was a Christian, I hadnthem, absolutely.nGinsberg: And since you’re a Christiannyou don’t?nLofton: No.nGinsberg: And when you had themndid they involve any dominance/nsubmission fantasies?nLofton: Mine were pretty orthodoxnheterosexual kind of fantasies. Butnthere’s no doubt they were bad. And Inam so glad that Jesus Christ deliverednme from them.nGinsberg: So you don’t have any at allnnow?nLofton: No.nGinsberg: You have no erotic dreams,nat all, that you remember?nLofton: None that don’t feature mynwife, no.nGinsberg: Yeah.nLofton: It’s an amazing thing whatnJesus can do for a person.nGinsberg: Uh-huh.nLofton: The power of the Holy Spirit.n. . . Do you feel that after these yearsnof therapy that you’re any closer tonknowing more —nGinsberg: Yes.nLofton: Like what?nGinsberg: I think some of that isnrather private.nLofton: Fair enough.nGinsberg: But they would relate tonsome of what I have written about innmy poems “Kaddish” and “WhitenShroud”. . .nLofton: Let’s talk about some of yournfeelings over the years and see if theynshould be respected. An April 21,n1978, Boston Globe story says thatnwhen you were on a local TV shownyou shared your sexual preference forn”young boys” and this caused an instantnirate reaction from mothersnwatching —nGinsberg: A few. Not that many.nLofton: A few mothers who had childrennhorne on vacation from school. Isnthis an accurate report? That you donhave a sexual preference for “youngnboys”?nGinsberg: No, no, no. It’s not accuratenin the context of the broadcast.nLofton: Did you say you had a sexualnpreference for “young boys”?nGinsberg: We’re not on trial here. I’mntrying to explain —nLofton: But, in a way, we’re all onntrial.nGinsberg: Well then you must excusenme if I don’t adopt the submissivenattitude you wish. … I got on the airnand said that when I was young I wasnapproached by an older man and Indon’t think it did me any harm. Andnthat I like younger boys and I think thatnprobably almost everybody has an inclinationnthat is erotic toward youngernpeople, including younger boys.nnnLofton: How young were the boys?nGinsberg: In my case, I’d say 14, 15,n16, 17, 18.nLofton: That you had sex with?nGinsberg: No, unfortunately I haven’tnhad the chance [laughs]. No, I’m talkingnabout my desires. I’m being franknand caiidid. And I’m also saying that ifnanyone was frank and candid, you’dnprobably find that in anybody’s breast.nThe —nLofton: But why? Why do you persistnin imputing your own rottenness tonother people?nGinsberg: One moment. Your questionnis: why do I persist in imputing mynown rottenness to other people?nLofton: That’s right.nGinsberg: Is this a newspaper interviewnor is it —nLofton: I’m a columnist who writesncommentary and opinion.nGinsberg: You realize that you’renusing language which could be consideredninsulting.nLofton: I hope so. I think it’s a rottennpreference to want to have sex withnyoung boys.nGinsberg: You feel that it’s part ofnyour role to sit here and insult me?nLofton: Do you feel you should beninsult-proof?nGinsberg: No, but in this circumstancenyou might have better manners.nLofton: You’re a little hung up onnmanners, I think.nGinsberg: You might couch your conversationnwith me a little more politelynsince —nLofton: Why? Why should I be polite?nI think to have sexual preferencesnfor young boys is rotten. I can’t saynthat?nGinsberg: Yeah. But you want me tonsay it, too. … It seems you’re beingnso abusive that it takes a great deal ofnpatience to be your host and to allownyou to try to manipulate the situation.nLofton: But I don’t think it’s true thatnmost people want to have sex withnyounger people.nGinsberg: I didn’t say that. You’rentaking words out of my mouth.nLofton: That is what you said.nGinsberg: No, I said that — we haventhis on tape, you know.nLofton: That we do, and I won’t burnnthis tape.nGinsberg: What I said was that mostnpeople have erotic desires for youngnpeople. And that doesn’t mean theynDECEMBER 1989/47n