would actually want to —nLofton: What do you mean “mostnpeople”? Where do you get your data?nGinsberg: Well, I’m just speaking as anhuman being poet who’s been aroundn61 years, a little older than you.nLofton: But that doesn’t mean, necessarily,nthat you’re smarter.nGinsberg: No, but that’s my experience.nIf you go back and talk to oldnfolks — they don’t see it as horrible.nThey see it as part of the charm of—nLofton: Yeah. Well, maybe you’venbeen running around with the wrongnpeople.nGinsberg: Maybe you’re not wantingnto listen to the whole sense of erosnhere.nLofton: I don’t doubt that most of thenpeople you’ve run with have wanted ton48/CHRONICLESnLIBERAL ARTSnA GAMEL IS A HORSE . . .nhave sex with young people. I’m justnsuggesting that their views don’t reflectnthe views of all Americans.nGinsberg: I didn’t say have sex. I saidnmost people have a kind of eroticnattraction to younger people.nLofton: You mean a fantasy they don’tnwant to act on?nGinsberg: Most don’t act on it. Ofncourse not. But most people have inntheir breasts an erotic pleasure fornyounger people.nLofton: You’ve repeated that severalntimes. And I’m denying it. But I’m notndenying the people you ran with feltnthis way.nGinsberg: It’s a kind of grannywisdom.nAnd you’re overreacting to it.nLofton: I don’t think your grandmothernwould have told you this.nGinsberg: You’re overreacting to thennotion that—nLofton: I hope so.nGinsberg: You’re interpreting it in sortnof a negative way. This is a part of thengeneral spectrum of human charm andnemotion rather than sin or rottennessnas you say.nLofton: I think most people readingnthis interview will agree that the desirento have sex with young boys is rotten.nGinsberg: It depends on where younpublish it. ,nLofton: That’s right. If you publish itnin the pedophile community, you’ll getna large amount of support.nGinsberg: If you publish it in thenTimes or The Washington Post, peoplenwill say well, Ginsberg is just talkingnnormal, humanistic, obvious old gran-nDallas City Council members last week decided to put asidentheir normal slate of business and talk about why theirnmeetings run so long.nThe discussion took 90 minutes.n”The problem is, we all talk too much on the council,”nsaid member Lori Palmer, prompting Mayor Annette Straussnto admonish council members to manage themselves better.nThen—you guessed it—she appointed a committee tonstudy the problem.n—from the Houston Chronicle,nSeptember 10, J 989nnnny wisdom like you can find in Shakespeare.nLofton: Okay. We obviously had differentnkinds of grandmothers. . . . Donyou now have a desire to have sex withnyoung boys?nGinsberg: I have a sexual desire fornthem, I must say, yes..nLofton: Still?nGinsberg: Oh, the older I get, thenmore.nLofton: And after six years of therapy,ntoo. This therapy must really be doingna good job.nGinsberg: You know what the therapyndoes?nLofton: It probably tells you it’s fine,njust get comfortable with it, right?nGinsberg: No, not quite. . . . Usuallynit’s a discussion of where this comesnfrom and trying to find the origin of it.nAnd find what conditioning affectednme that I arrived at this particularnorientation. That’s all.nLofton: How about sin? Is it a possibilitynthat you are a sinner?nGinsberg: That doesn’t come intonplay. What comes into play is an attemptnto cultivate an awareness of thensituation so that if there are any harmfulnconsequences, in myself or others,nthey can be seen through and avoided.nThe attempt is to understand the situation,nnot categorize it with knee-jerknwords like “sin,” but to understand thenroots of it historically and what thenpersonal experience roots were.nLofton: Well, sin goes back pretty far.nGinsberg: And then relate to thendirect personal experience in a way thatnwill take the sting out of it in a sense ofndoing harm to others or yourself.nLofton: But this sexual preference fornyoung boys doesn’t seem to be somethingnyou want to be delivered from.nYou smile when you talk about it. Youndon’t want to be cured of this, do you?nGinsberg: I should say my sexualnpreference is not exclusively for youngnboys, but also for middle-aged men,nstraight men, and women. I’ve occasionallynhad fantasies about making outnwith trucks as well as beasts. Andnmaybe I’ll be making out with younbefore it’s all over [laughs].nLofton: Well, maybe I could drive thatntruck while you make out with it,nperhaps an 18-wheeler, with the pedalto-the-metal.nGinsberg: Now there’s your fantasyn[laughs].n